Norma O'Kelly 0:01
If you're a point in your business where you feel you're stuck and you feel a weight in some format on you, and there's something that you don't know why, energetically, that you're not moving forward, that's the time for a systemic coach to help you. The times that I've really worked on it, my business has turned around totally that's
Finola Howard 0:18
the Norma O'Kelly systemic coach and facilitator, I asked Norma to join me today to bring to light the work of systemic coaching. It's this idea that we all come from unique systems, family, school, workplace, etc, and if we learn the patterns of how we operate in those systems, we can make huge changes in our lives. Finally, right sizing ourselves for the lives we want to live, and more, it's a fascinating perspective that may shed some light on why you do the things you do. So lean in and see if something resonates for you. I'm Finola Howard, Business Growth strategist with a joyful heart and your host of the your truth shared podcast. I believe that every business has a story to tell, because that's how the market decides whether to buy or not, and your story has to resonate with who you are and with the people you want to serve. And this podcast is about helping you reach the market in a way that feels right to you. So if you're an entrepreneur with a dream you want to make real, then this is the podcast for you, because great marketing is your truth shared. What came to me to talk about in the podcast was this idea of the importance of self awareness, self care, but real awareness and consciousness to help you on the entrepreneurial journey, because this self awareness helps us really discover our true identities and the work that we want to do in the world. So today, I want to introduce you to this idea of systemic coaching, of being part of a bigger system. And I have a beautiful person to talk about this today with, and her name is the lovely Hi, Norma, oh, Kelly, you will gather from that little screech that we are good friends. Also welcome Norma, thank
Norma O'Kelly 2:18
you so much, Finola, and it feels like I'm stepping into a new realm by being on your podcast. This was a podcast that supported me in the last 12 months, and all your other amazing guests and their stories, and they have been such a huge source of inspiration. So to be on the other side now and being part of us is very exciting, also important,
Finola Howard 2:43
and I thank you for joining us. I love this work that you're doing, and not many people have heard about it, so we will do a little dive into your background and stuff and the journey that took you to here. But I'd love you to spend a moment and talk to us a little bit about systems, system theory, systemic coaching, help us understand that.
Norma O'Kelly 3:09
Thank you. Finola, yes, it's the most obvious question and and assumptions can quickly jump in. And I think if I had heard about systemic coaching, maybe in this format. Even as the name, I probably would have went, Oh, that sounds like IT systems. And I'll run the other way, because that's so not me and it's, it's everything but and it is everything included as well. So I'll start there. Systems are. Think of it as, firstly, as your family being the first system you're born into, and that is the system that we are born into, regardless of whether we're the eldest child, the middle child, the youngest child, or we come fifth or sixth, our role as we entered into our families became becomes our role as who We are in our lives, and those patterns that we learn at home, whether they're adaptive, maladaptive, conscious subconscious, become really, really woven into who we are as people. So the work originally comes from the beautiful work of Burt Hellinger and Family Constellations, who which honored family work, but also my work as a systemic coach, brings in all of the systems. So both schooling, education, that first place you worked in, to even your current place you work in, or even your aspirational systems that you were part of, equally sports, faith, your country of origin, your county, all of them make up this beautiful makeup of all the systems we've ever been in, and the image that we talk about in the work, and who I've studied with, John Whittington, he talks about the peacocks tale. And right now, as I look at you and the beautiful Finola Howard and who you are, I see this rich beauty. Peacock's tail behind you, and each eye of the tail represents every system you've ever been in. And I see, when I sit back in the chair, I see the richness of you and all of the systems that you've come in, and that already, from the fundamental point of starting point, I see you as whole. I see you as really well resourced. I see all these things that have shaped you into who you are today. And then from there, you might be able to even access some of those places or people that you've been loyal to along the way. And the work really starts to remind you are the word remember, so like a family member, to remember what we might have forgotten and to include them. Other practices that I've even worked with, and things like deeper spiritual work, there's this idea of cutting ties, when in fact, systemic work is very much inclusive and includes everything. And it was probably part of the reason I was attracted to it, because sometimes when you start training, and especially in the line of coaching work, it's like, oh, forget about all that now that you did, and we're just going to focus on this type of coaching, and this is the style I want you to do, and everything that came before is no longer valid, whereas this work is the total opposite, and it includes everything. And that for me, was like, bingo. Wow, that's it. Well, I'm
Finola Howard 6:21
also having a bingo moment too, because I have felt over the years, or I feel over the years, that too often this idea of, you know, even the idea in marketing that you have, because I know you have a background in marketing as well, but this idea of niching down and, you know, separateness all the time. We're conditioned societally to think of things as separate things, work, life, home, life, you know, this thing or that thing, dual, non polarities. Yeah, always. And there's something very wonderful about about realizing the wholeness of who you already are that this seems to encompass, and it means that you don't have to you don't have to forget things as you said. You don't have to lose part of yourself in order to gain part of yourself. Do you know what I mean?
Norma O'Kelly 7:22
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah. And I think as a as a system, like our system, we grew up in a catholicist world, which was wrong and right or wrong and good or bad, and those polarities, we because that was a very ingrained system. And we're talking about our forefathers, our ancestors would have subscribed to those rules of belonging in the systems that we carry them subconsciously, consciously. So the polarities of either or is it has, although it has benefited us in a lot of ways now as this more evolved species that can access our feelings and our subconscious looking at the bridge between both worlds and that there, it's never either or it's and, and there's such a richness, when we talk about it, as the field, everything around us, conscious subconscious is this rich field, and everything's included, and Everyone, and that includes family members that have have passed, and can be, you know, really, really, really change the dynamics of a family if there's been a sudden even an infant death, miscarriage, abortion, children lost at war. And you see, again, even what's happening globally in the world, I see it in a such deeper sense of how impactful that would be, not just for this generation, but for the next seven generations. In fact, we look at this work, so
Finola Howard 8:47
are we ready for this realization that everything is connected?
Norma O'Kelly 8:51
I think subconsciously, the people that are are being drawn into working with me and my peers at a wider context, there is probably not at all, because it feels there's a lot of fear, I suppose, with the unknown in general. But I think for the people that are ready, they're more than ready. And when I start speaking, I can see it in their eyes, as kind of light bulb moments goes off, and they kind of feel, Oh yes, I know that I was the second child, and that dictated who I became in my workplace, or who I became as even the parent I've become, because my elder sister is a different parent than I am, and they start connecting with who they are as a story, and then we start including all the other rich parts. So when, when we talk about them and their story, they can see the bigger context and see the the what needs to be included and what needs to be remembered. But I think when it can be too yes, at a hypothetical level, it doesn't feel accessible. So my job is to make it really, real, pragmatic, practical, and that's who I am as a person. Them, and I think that's why it's the nuance of what I do and who I am, is that perfect male launch together?
Finola Howard 10:06
Can you bring it to life for us a little bit by maybe giving us an example not not to breach any confidentiality for anyone? But perhaps there's a story that, because some of this might seem too ethereal to our listeners who may have heard or only hearing it, perhaps for the first time. So perhaps there's a story that you can take of, perhaps someone that you may have worked with or came across in the workplace, that there's some reference point to who they were their home life. Actually, I let you tell the story. You choose the story you were the best person to do. So
Norma O'Kelly 10:43
yeah, and the minute you started talking about I was like, I probably use my own story actually, because that is make it even more respectful of my coaches and my clients. So one of the things in systemic work is all about sizing and being correctly sized, and we talk about it and bartending would have talked it in the orders of love. What came first takes precedence. So if there's an older sibling there, they're bigger than you, they're older than you. They arrive before you, and and, and I'll say even my parents grandparents, there's an order of love that things happen in, and often case, when there is a loss or something energetically that has happened in the family, sometimes the youngest might feel like they're the eldest because the the elder weren't able to step into that role of authority, so their sizing becomes disproportionate. And so bring it back to myself. I was the second child of five, but actually I was, I would have always only said I was a two child family, but actually my mother had three babies after me and the loss that was felt in our family, I incorrectly size myself from a very, very young age, because I felt really, really responsible for my mother, who came home from hospital quite wounded, particularly on the loss of our last sibling, Julie and I then became an authority figure when I was still A child. So I was I like sub totally subconsciously, obviously, wouldn't have found out till much later in life that I was playing the role of of care and mother, skewer and mother. Yeah, I was a mother when my mother was absolutely amazing mother, but there was parts of her at that wounded bird stage that I I felt really responsible for her wellness and and as that pattern of being incorrectly sized throughout my life played such formal role in everything I came I even though I've never become a mother, which, again, has its own story, I was always the mother hen. You know, I was the hockey captain. I was the, you know, deputy head girl in school. I was a manager from a very young age or a team lead. And it was always that mother role, and that trying to rescue and fix and keep everybody going, and that kind of Kofi Annan character, kind of everyone to get along. And as a result that that being incorrectly sized in my family life became hugely important to my life, because I was, I was the wrong size, and so many systems.
Finola Howard 13:32
And why do you say you're Why do you say you were the wrong size? Because part of me is going but perhaps that was your destiny to be that size. Yeah,
Norma O'Kelly 13:43
it was twice. And I suppose where it became so it's this maladaptive strategy is when I burnt out and I forgot to care for me, so I put the importance of the other ahead of my own needs. At all times that everybody I was on always on high alert for everybody else's energy or where they were at, and I absolutely neglected myself. And so it became a huge issue for me when I was diagnosed with endometriosis at 28 and it was this realization of, oh, shit, I actually have to care for myself here. And if you
Finola Howard 14:16
were just to ask you this question, if you were right sized now, because part of me will think that, well, maybe it was your destiny to be this, to get to where you are now, you know, because we often go through our trials and tribulations, so we have our learning points, but if you were inverted commas correctly sized, would this not have happened? Then the burnout, the endometriosis, the just
Norma O'Kelly 14:41
to be potentially, yeah, no, you're, you're absolutely right. Who knows? Right? That's, that's, that's a, that's a very different question, energetically, yes, absolutely, I do believe that was to be my story. But I suppose with with awareness and with doing this work, now I see similarity. And my clients on that weight of responsibility, and when it becomes an issue is when it starts impacting our health but also impacting our dreams of who we truly want to be. Because if we're so laden down with the responsibilities for everyone, how can we really, really have boundaries and care for ourselves? So it is to a point. Yes, it will bring you to a place. But then when it becomes, you know, it's always, as humans, we will move away from pain. So when the pain gets too great, we have to look at it. And I think systemic work is putting a like a spotlight, a stage, spotlight on one aspect of our lives initially, before we can see it all, because it would be too overwhelming to look at all of it at once, and then you look at that part, and that, for me, was, and it's it. There's a formula to it. It's not just going, Oh, I was the wrong size, you know. And that's where the systemic coach guides you through a constellation.
Finola Howard 15:56
Forgive me, as I poke if you were the right size, if you were the right size, how would you have been just, I know you can't know, but if you were, if you weren't taking so the elder or the mother figure would have I was the true younger
Norma O'Kelly 16:15
child. I probably would have been more childlike for longer I and I have a real mess or kind of fun aspect in me. I know it was always an error. It was on, it was always in a real rebellious way, though, because I wasn't always allowed do that, whereas, like, I probably would have been more playful until, like, for a lot longer in my life, where I felt I grew up very soon and I had those responsibilities, but I will say there's loads of pros to being the wrong size at that point in my life. But now we're the stage of being the entrepreneur and particularly a coach. We have to be really, really aware that we're not in rescue, because we're not nobody's broken, so we don't fix anybody. So doing the work. Attending to your aspects of your size is just one of many, many aspects. But I see it again. I see it in my clients as something else. So there's there's formulas too, and I just mentioned the word constellation is constellations are like a map, a way of doing it can be done somatically. It can be done online. It can be done in loads of different formats. Different formats, where you you you kind of restore the responsibility to the elder, and you take the parts of you that you're responsible for, so there's an honoring of them. So it's really respectful. It's not like it's your fault. You do get to vocalize, I'm sad this happened, and you get to show anger. There's not it's not about suppressing any those emotions, but it's not a real like two fingers up to you. You did that to me. It's not like that. It's very much. I gladly took some of those responsibilities because I wanted to help, and that was from a place of love and loyalty to you, but now I hand back the parts of you that are no longer mine, and they're yours, and you were, you were the mother, and I was the child. And then there is that. Then I'm going to attend to the parts of me that I'm responsible for, because I'm an adult now, and I know what, what's important. So there's a real, it's a beautiful, energetic work where automatically, I would see myself included, just a lightness, you know, across the chest, in particular, where we would hold because it's from the matters of the heart, right, the heart brain, that love and that loyalty, that that we have for people, that there's a lightness, some people describe it to me when they come to me as clients, as this kind of Weight on their chest, or fog, like a dense, dense fog that they can't see, and they they're at a logical level of blaming it on something else, when sometimes it's it's a much deeper richness. So we start looking at those patterns from an earlier age, where they began and how they might have began, and then right sizing them in the returning of what wasn't there, as to the elder, whoever that elder was, that carer figure, and then being able to this idea of step to better. You're stepping out into this new place, feeling lighter with with energetically, the people that love you and care for you right behind you, caring for you, moving with you, but giving you enough distance that you can go on your own. And initially, this is kind of like a 30 days, 60 days, where people feel really, possibly a little bit uncomfortable because they're not entangled to this things from the past. So there's a lot of reassurance in those early days, in those early sessions, to kind of help support people, but as they step into this new place, they're like, Oh, this is really nice and free and juicy, and I can move here. Ooh, I can dance again. And they start exploring things that they've probably never, ever had that ability to do. So things happen like, energetically, they get phone calls out of the blue. They they hear from people they might. Heard from a long time, and the sequence of events start happening, but I can never I'm not, I'm not a fortune teller. I don't know what's going to happen. So, yeah, it's a it's it's such a rich work, and it would have happened me as well, you know. But I any of the attending to my, my own systemic lenses. I walked out of places like back flipping with freedom, going, what the hell just happened there? So it is, it is deep work, but it is so powerful, like, and I don't say that just for myself. I see it in my my clients all the time. Sometimes they didn't even they didn't they don't even realize they've done some of the work, because it feels so natural. It doesn't feel doesn't feel forced or anything. There's no forcing in this work.
Finola Howard 20:46
It feels possibly gentler than than the therapies that we're used to hearing about.
Norma O'Kelly 20:55
Yeah, and it's, I love the word honoring, because it honors everything that comes before, and it includes everything. So there is but there is also room for everything. There's room for anger. There's room for all of the emotions. You know, it's not just, it's all like rainbows and unicorns. I'm not that kind of worker either. You know, there is a realness to it as well. Very real. Have
Finola Howard 21:18
the types of clients that you've attracted surprised you
Norma O'Kelly 21:23
now more so than maybe like 1218, months ago, where, yeah, the work has become deeper and deeper, so the cases are more complex, and that has both intrigued me, but also, of course, as a human, scared me, going, wow. So I have to attend to what resources me for those so I have a lot of supervision to help support me. But also, I have my own resources, things like the sea, things like breathing, things like representatives of, let's say I have a representative beside me of my sister, my baby sister, and so she's a huge she has become a huge resource for me, and I've picked a unicorn actually explain
Finola Howard 22:07
that to the listeners, so that you actually have because you're honoring the family system that you came from. And one of the things that I've often heard you speak about in this space, which is that we have resources that we can tap into that we don't realize that we have. And one of the resources that you tap into, well, you have two. I know. One is your sister Julie, who died very young within 24 hours or something. Guys have been boring, yeah, and so what? And the other is your grandmother, but, but why like? So here I'll do my little pragmatic self of what, what do you mean like? So you have something that represents each of these two people, that represents that family system of yours. How are they possibly a resource for you.
Norma O'Kelly 23:02
So again, this is the deeper work I, I have kind of done, work where I, I tap into, if Julie had lived, who would she be, and what would her energies be, and what would she say to me at specific occasions? And I've, I've imagined or pictured her as this 20 something year old, kind of really feisty, hilarious, sarcastic has, like some of my own elements, but really, really fun, but really fiery. And I picked something that would represent her. So I bought a teddy bear that would represent her and and I touch it. So I hold it, I close, hold it close to myself. And I would say, just as a resource, Judy, what would I need to do in this situation? What would you? What would you recommend? And somehow you hear a voice that will say, Go, do it. Don't even think about it. Come on, you know? And is
Finola Howard 24:02
that, is that you accessing Julie, or is that accessing our own deeper wisdom that's inside us?
Norma O'Kelly 24:09
Yeah, it's both. It's both. It's not either or it's never either or it's both. So if it feels true, we'd often say in this work, does it feel true? And you'd say yes. And I what I see it. I would see it a lot in clients with siblings that have passed, older siblings in particular. And we'd say, you know, what would John say to you at this given time? And they'd say, John would say that I should embrace it, or go do it. Or John would say, I need to watch my my energy levels or and they you will see the streams of tears come down the ice, and then, you know, it's true. So it's accessing them as as a as a guide, nearly. And sometimes it's it's heard, sometimes it's seen. Sometimes they close their eyes and they imagine them smiling them, or, you know, something that. And again, my own mother, who's who has passed. As well. You know, I could imagine her times where I need to access her and her wisdom, and I'd say, What would she What would comfort she could give me right now? Or what could she tell me that would really, really support me grandparents equally, even as my grandfather was an entrepreneur, so I've looked at him as a resource, as I, you know, in building my business, what would if, and I didn't even know the man, just energetically getting a picture of him, I get a sense of him, what will be the type of things that he could have said to me as guidance? So, they're very abstract things, but resources can equally be very grounded things, and people you do know. But
Finola Howard 25:41
I think what my can access interesting is as a frame of reference, even for people who have never done this, but as Irish people, we often reference those have passed like I know, I talk to my dad who has passed, and say, Come on, Dad, now I need a bit of help here or whatever. So it's actually just bringing something that we, by our very nature, do, automatically or very naturally, and just actually make them more active in our lives. That's fair to say, exactly
Norma O'Kelly 26:07
100% you've summed it up really well better than myself, Finola, and what I would say to that is for your dear dad to pick something that represents him. So whether it's like I have a pink button in my in my hand, and I'm not quite sure who that represents, yet, it will probably come to me later, but something that you can pick up, it needs to be somatically felt and held. And it could be a photograph. It could be, you know, clothing he wore, or a pipe he smoked, or a cup that he used. But really, really truly, to make it more grounded into the present state, so you can access it as a resource, choose something to represent him. So then when you have that, and some people, that's why people go to graveyards, right? Because that's their resource. Where they're they're literally talking like anchoring, absolutely anchoring and NLP, like the basis of constellation work and systemic work is what came first, was NLP work. So that would be the exact same thing as anchoring. So you would come and choose something, but this is something that maybe you keep in your purse or keep in your car, or something that's on your desk at work that you can pick up and close your eyes, and that person really, really, really reminds you this thing, and you're then you're touching it, you're feeling it, you're even putting it close to your heart or your gut or wherever you need that that kind of, I suppose, intelligence, for want of a better word. And then it becomes much more grounded and real, and that's the pragmatic side of it. What
Finola Howard 27:46
comes to me then is this feeling that, you know, we're in a society where loneliness is enormous, where people feel very alone, that actually this is a really powerful tool that teaches us we aren't alone
Norma O'Kelly 28:05
100% but there's nothing you know the minute you said that, I said, Look, and as well, you do need connection. And your resources. My resources are real. You're one of my resources, Finola, they're real people too. I don't want to talk all abstractly, because I want you to. I'm a resource for people. You're a huge resource for people. So the real, tangible connections of resources. Who are those people who magnetize energy, who energize you, who lift you, who support you. Because, you know, we've all talked about that famous like energy, no drains versus radiators, right? So when you need a radiator in our life, who are those people? They're your resources, meeting them, having a phone call with them, hearing a voice note from them, whether you know some of them will know. Some of them we won't know. They're going to be really important. Other resources that you and I share, the sea, huge resource brings us back into our bodies, gets us out of our head. So there is an unlimited supply of resources, but different resources will do different things for you on a given day. So whether it's that loved one that has passed on, and you have something that represents them, that that will help you there, and the definitely, when it comes from the family system, that is really powerful, especially a parent, even if the even if the relationship was challenging, you're appealing to their higher selves. So what would their higher self have said? It's not necessarily. My mother was a very busy woman. She wouldn't have had time to stop in a kitchen and give me loving, caring advice. But her higher self would her higher self would be normal. Why don't you take care of yourself today, but her practical self have been like, come on now, there's loads of work to be done here, you know. But always, you know. So if, even if there's a challenging relationship that was challenging in the living world, in the 3d world, there is a higher aspect that you can access of the. These people that have passed so looking at all of that together again as this wholeness that it might feel again, for those people who are hearing this for the first time, what is that practical resource that you need for you in your life today, and if that is, you know, going to the cinema tonight, or if that's having a nice meal out, or it's like having your a cleaner come in and help support you. They're also your resources. So what is going to resource you for the part of your life that you're in this week, this day, this month? What do you need? And every day is going to be different, and then there'll be repetitive ones that you need all the time, like for us the sea
Finola Howard 30:39
What are your thoughts on? I mean, I have a very strong view on the importance of consciousness in in for entrepreneurship, for successful entrepreneurship, because it's about shaping a way forward. That's that's the power of entrepreneurship, which is about creating something, shaping something. And I've always felt and my experience teaches me that consciousness allows us to shape better, to to shape better. Yeah, what's your thoughts on that? Because this is a very conscious space, it's possibly bringing people into a higher level of consciousness than they
Norma O'Kelly 31:21
may do every day. So the one thing I felt about entrepreneurship, and I suppose was my own journey to entrepreneurship, is this, you might feel alone, but you're also part of this wider system. And in in Ireland and England, is something like 99.9% of businesses are entrepreneurs, including sole traders, and that we have a rich network and field within us that is its own system to support you. And the days that it feels you feel quite alone, that you probably aren't resourced enough to know that there's a whole network of people that that want to support you, and they're probably your peers who are running their own businesses, who have been in a similar place and can help support you. And I'll bring that one level up from solo entrepreneurs to entrepreneurs, as in to people who are in a group, founding a company. I work with a lot of founders, and founder systems are like you and I are own founders, but and we have, let's say contractors or people who support it, but they're not like let's say, when you've clean employees, let's say or you're building for a seed round funding, a seed round funding, rather how looking at each of your systems as founders, if you Let's say there's three founders together. I work with them to map out, let's say, Mission values, but in a way that honors all of their family systems, because they're going to take the energy of who they were in their family with them into the business. So we see that at a big, big corporate level, CEOs, even former CEOs that I would have worked with, who they were, if they were like sons and daughters of immigrants, how they they would fight for justice as one of their, you know, key values because of the systems they came from, and how that really, really dictates how they run their company at large. So when you're at a founding level, the importance of looking at those values and your mission statements as a result of who you are and who you were in your families, because that if those, if there's conflicting things going on between founders, that that's where the entanglements start, and what will happen in 10 years time, when you have an employee team, and if There was fraction between three founders, you'll find that that repeats itself within the organization maybe 567, years down the line where there's three people in a leadership team that will work and get on together because one founder left and they were no longer remembered or honored in the growth of the company. So I work with founders at the start to really make sure that those entanglements are included and honored and acknowledged, and then they can, then they take these steps to better together, whereas when everything is kind of pushed under the carpet and you hope for the best that doesn't, that strategy doesn't work, and that's when shit hits the fan and A founder leaves, and then there's two left, and they resent the person that has left energetically. That resentment energy could really inhibit the success of the business moving forward over the coming years. So to attend to the endings, let's say of of of those that say if there was somebody that left, but also making sure whoever steps into the next role will be, let's say, not quite founder energy, but very like senior senior executive, that they would find their authority in their place in that system because somebody has left in bad taste. So it's all these dynamics that are at play all the time that you're you're constantly looking at. But then come back to a solar entrepreneur. Are looking at your system, and looking at where you were in your family, and who you played, the role you played there, how that will impact your business. And again, if you feel entangled in some way within your family system and the role you played there, to attend to that, because it will help your business be more successful. I'm
Finola Howard 35:22
going to put you on the spot. Do you have an exercise to ground this for listeners? Yeah,
Norma O'Kelly 35:32
so if you're listening to this at a desk, if you're driving, this is an activity for you to do when you get home. I want you to pick two things, one that represents your mother, one that represents your father. So two representative energies go around your house, you'll find something like, I wouldn't advise a pen. It can be a cup, though, and it can be whatever else. Something like, yeah, like, I have a button in my hand here, but something, something that represents your mother and something that represents your mother and something that represents your father, you'll know it the minute you see it. Really, really, you'll probably laugh and go, Oh, that's a bit mad. And if one is quite big and one is quite small, that, again, is just information. And I want you to Once you've picked them by right as well, I probably should have said you pick yourself first. So pick something that will represent you. So let's say I and not your mobile phone. By the way, that's not a good energy so like a cup full of water, right? So that's how I feel right now. I feel quite full in my cup. So I'm choosing, let's say, a cup to represent me. I'm choosing this button to represent my mother. My mother was older, so she comes first, and I am going to pick these glasses to represent my father. So again, then for those who are listening, it doesn't really matter that you can't see me, so just listen to how I will instruct you. So depending on who comes first, if your mother or father is older, so my mother was older than my father, so she will be placed down first, and I'll place her a little bit away from me. She's a bit to my right, and my father is a bit more over to the left. So it's, it's putting them where you feel they are energetically now. And even if, if one of your, if your family members have passed or again, you're estranged, you'll know you might, even if they were estranged, want to place the glasses really far away from you because you can't see them, and then a direction is important. If you're facing, let's say, north, and you can see both your parents, that means you're probably more resourced. But right now, if you feel that your mother is far to your left and right or behind you, and you can't actually see them equally father, then you'd be looking at why that might be the case. And then you're, you're, you're asking to something to address your dad. And again, it is so much easier if you have somebody to guide you in this work. But this can be a gentle experiment. And I would say, you know, asking your father what, what he might have to say at this time, again energetically and again, your mother. And it could be simple, like, I think you're doing a great job. I think you work too hard. I think you should rest. It could be You're doing so well in your business. I'm so proud of you. And just hearing what they might say again from their place of their higher self, if you feel you need to move them closer to you, that if, in fact, they're too far away, or you turn yourself, if the cup is, let's say, if it was a cup with a handle that you turn yourself around to face your father and say, Thank you for for your wisdom. Thank you for your love. Equally with your mother, you're turning something to acknowledge and see her. The importance of being seen. But maybe the information is, I can't look at you right now. I'm not able to look at you. I'm not able to to face you right now, and that going really gently with that, and just saying, that's okay, that's okay. I'm not ready to look at you today, but I know you're there and every day, just, you know, playing around with that kind of it is a constellation in itself, where you are in relation to your parents. Again, I would really, really advise, if there's something really big within the family that you would you would get the support of somebody like me, or me as a systemic coach to guide you through this. Because if it feels really abstract, but you know, it might be helpful, that's what I'm there to support and guide you through those processes. That's something really simple, but really, really, profoundly impactful. Equally, can be done with your siblings. If you have siblings that you feel might be supportive of your entrepreneurship or are jealous or whatever resentful, whatever the energy might be behind that to pick something that would represent them and have this kind of placement, like, Am I able to look at them? Do I want to mine myself and actually protect myself away from them? And again, that's just information and just kind of being compassionate with yourself, whatever you see in these placements, it is like, Oh, okay. Can, even if you're somebody who's really abstract and that the items like, you know, the glasses or the the glass or the button or whatever, that's too much you do. And I do it on a screen. I do it, I we we use it through mural and or on Zoom. And you can pick circles that represents maybe a sibling or a parent. Or most of the time when it's in a corporate context, it could be a manager and it could be a teammate, could be a former manager. I do a lot of work on attending to your endings. So people have who had challenging endings with former employers organizations leaders. And we do some energetic work on kind of those constellation moves, and we do it online, on Zoom, so it doesn't always have to be a thing. It can be. And I get people to touch the screen and and really make contact with with with with what they are choosing to represent, maybe a former manager. But I, yeah, I it is big,
Finola Howard 41:00
like I felt it doing when you were doing that exercise, even though I didn't pick the things, I could feel it. And I could already feel the value of doing something with such depth but such gentleness that it'll that IT resources you to to feel into it differently, perhaps than being triggered by it, yeah,
Norma O'Kelly 41:25
yeah. And if you were really triggered by it, I'd, I would probably as a true yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't. Don't feel you have to do something like that alone.
Finola Howard 41:35
But it's a curious but even for from the perspective of this exercise of this podcast episode, it's a curiosity to to explore things, perhaps that you haven't come across yet, that could help you Exactly,
Norma O'Kelly 41:50
exactly, especially if you're a point in your business where you feel you're stuck and things aren't moving, and you're feeling really alone, and you feel a weight in some format on you, and you've tried it all. You have a business coach. You're, you know, with entrepreneur groups, and you're still not feeling resourced. And there's something that you don't know why, energetically, that you're not moving forward, that's the time for a systemic coach to help you unlock that. It could be one session, could be three sessions, something to allow you to step into this authority, feeling much more resourced. And the times that I've really worked on it, and I would have done an awful lot of work in the spring around it, my business has turned around totally since I have, you know, kind of looked at these entanglements, but also resource myself more and more and more. And I continue to do supervision. I continue to be resourced by my learnings on this work, because we get ourselves entangled with our families all the time, energy, it's consciously, subconsciously, and again, it's not a blame game. This is that's so not it at all, at all. That's why my family can hear these podcasts and still talk to me with the love, I hope. But no, it really is. It is such a such a gentle work. And I will call out, you know, my my dad or my brother are huge living resources to me, especially because they have both a real drive in them. They're both really driven, and that has become a huge resource to me as well. My brother studied entrepreneurship in college, and I didn't, because I was a type of black sheep, not a total black sheep, probably gray sheep. Study in French, and I was just so I remembered him doing entrepreneurship projects in college, and I was just so, God, I'd love that. I'd love that that's really interesting. And he probably doesn't even remember that my dad was a salesman, and he has, even now in his 70s, he's such drive, he's such passion, and he's like, so every day is like, how we getting on? You know, he's really, really, really has my back. So there is, you know, that that love and support is really, really there, and I'm really, really grateful for it, really grateful.
Finola Howard 44:05
I'd love it's beautiful. So my usual question of, What would you like people to walk away with today?
Norma O'Kelly 44:12
I think it's the you are whole and resourced. You're not broken. You don't need to be fixed. And if anybody tells you that, I'd dig deeper and know that everything that you're holding inside you, some of it is yours, and some of it isn't yours. And there's a way to disentangle yourself, to step into this new place of freedom, but yet you still will feel the beautiful resources of the people that love you and they're still there for you, but you don't have to hold things so heavy anymore, and that there is a freedom and a whole beautiful world for you to explore that you you probably haven't even scratched the surface on yet. And if you feel you're looking down. A lot, you'll start to look up a lot more. And I'm blessed in where I live, it's a north facing apartment out to the sea, and every day I look to to them, to the my own North Stars. And it it's it feels more accessible because of the work that I have done on myself, but also just such an honor to help other people. And actually the word is being useful, not helping them, being useful for them in this work. So I would say you are whole. You are not broken. You are You have tons of resources. And now it's time to start accessing them and stepping into a place that you can only but shine
Finola Howard 45:44
beautiful. Thank you so much, Norma.
Norma O'Kelly 45:48
Not at all. Thank you, Finola, that was fabulous. Loved it,
Finola Howard 45:54
and that's it for this episode, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. Make sure to connect with Norma on LinkedIn or on Instagram. I'll put the links in the show notes. She's an incredible resource for growth, so do reach out. Thank you for listening to your truth shared. And if you enjoy this episode, make sure to share it with your entrepreneurial friends and help them grow their business to even greater heights. And until next time, let's keep growing. You.
