Sara Slattery 0:00
There is something about being yourself at work that feels unsafe. We all know about fight or flight, but there's another piece on that. It's called fawning, and that is making sure everybody in the room likes you. And the reason why we do it is because we feel that there's a lack of access to power. When we do that, when we're likable, we can stay safe. It's a safety thing. That's Sarah Slattery value led coach dedicated to helping you do life, work and business your way. This is episode one of a three part series that's all about enshrining your health and well being into your success journey. This is the how we work episode because, of course, there's more than one way to do it. Sarah like me is all about ensuring there is joy in the journey. So tune in and reshape how you do you this year.
Finola Howard 0:50
I'm Finola Howard, Business Growth strategist with a joyful heart and your host of the your truth shared podcast, I believe that every business has a story to tell, because that's how the market decides whether to buy or not, and your story has to resonate with who you are and with the people you want to serve. And this podcast is about helping you reach the market in a way that feels right to you. So if you're an entrepreneur with a dream you want to make real, then this is the podcast for you, because great marketing is your truth shared. And today I wanted to talk to you about work, our idea of work, how work is changing. You'll hear a lot about the future of work when you're on LinkedIn and places like that, but the very nature of work and what it's what's happening to society as we look at work, and even as we look at different professions in work, and the rise of burnout in work, all of these questions that are happening around the area of work, and what we could possibly do about it. And so today, I wanted to introduce you to the lovely Sarah Slattery, who has a lot of opinions on this particular topic, who and I think we have a really good conversation. And Sarah is a coaching, training and leadership support coach for values driven organizations and change making women. So I really like that one. So welcome Sarah. Thank you so much. Finola delighted to be here.
Yay. Okay, so let's kind of get stuck in right from the beginning, because I do want to really talk about our ideas and our conditioning around work, because there's a lot of conditioning around work, but I kind of like to set the scene first, and maybe perhaps chat about your story and how you came to this view of work, and how we can do things differently because you were in a corporate life or in a caring, supportive life, but in a in a
Sara Slattery 2:53
in the system, for lack of a better way of saying it, can you tell us about that journey that sparked these many conversations that you're having at the moment about work? Yeah, sure. I mean, I suppose, like all of us, our previous experience informs who we are now and who we are as people, and how we see the world and how we view the world. And my previous experience, prior to being a coach, was I worked for 20 years in the nonprofit and public service spaces. So I worked with a lot of young people who were disadvantaged for many reasons, left school early and helped them with kind of employment and education training plans. I worked with young people, I visited them in prison who were just about to leave to help support them when they returned out to their communities, and then I moved into the public service, which, again, was more of a kind of a caring role. I worked a lot of families and young people who were having difficulties with the school system, so children who were expelled, children who couldn't get school places, children who weren't attending school for a variety of reasons, whether that was deliberate or they were just having many issues at home that they were they needed support with. So I suppose I worked in sectors that are, I suppose, traditionally overworked and underpaid, and
I noticed myself included, and a lot of my colleagues just reaching this point of I can't do this anymore. I'm just not able to do this. I have to either leave or I have to change who I am. I kind of opt out and just coast a little bit because I'm no longer able to really put myself into this role.
So I and I ended up leaving. I had a fairly serious case of burnout in 2012 and
that didn't I didn't leave immediately. I left for a while. I got quite sick, and I was off for a while, and I did return, but I changed a few things when I returned, and that bought me some time to figure out.
My next steps were going to be. So I suppose working in those arenas, working the way that I did work, observing all my colleagues. I'm always observing. I'm always looking, I'm always seeing, what are people doing and why are they doing it, and the patterns are really strong. And speaking to my colleagues, who are still kind of working in those spaces. That seems to be still the case. And in fact, maybe even wages are lower now. So I would argue that maybe it's even a less supportive environment at this point. One
Finola Howard 5:33
of the things that struck me when we were speaking was you had this phrase, which really struck me, and it was that you worked in difficult locations, the places that people wish didn't exist. Can you say a little bit more about that? Yeah, I think there are certain professions that
Sara Slattery 5:52
work in places in our societies that the vast majority of people would prefer just weren't there or didn't exist, or maybe it's too difficult to kind of think that that exists in our current society. So when they say difficult situations, I'm talking about housing estates that have been really, really neglected by everybody. I'm talking about areas pockets. It was Dublin I was living in at the time that, you know, people just kind of like to brush off as no go areas, as if there aren't human beings and families living there and working there and trying to do their best. That being said, and I'm not equating this to having to live in those areas. But when you work on the day to day basis, going into homes, going into levels of poverty that are really, really quite extreme, like some places not having running water in Ireland, right? It does take a toll on your work and your ability to do your work, because you cannot, if you're in any ways, a caring and empathetic person, which most people are, who kind of go into these these roles. There's no way you can continue that without it taking a bit of a toll on you and your psyche. And if you're not getting correct support, which a lot of people aren't, like, you know, adequate supervision and possibly therapy, then that just really, really begins to weigh down on you and who you are. And what I found was it was beginning to make me think that all young people were like this, all areas were like this, like so when you're only seeing the negative and you're only seeing what's not going well, it begins to skew your vision of the reality of the world that being said, I think a lot of people could do it knowing that these areas exist and they're not just there to be labeled as something that you'd rather not entertain
Finola Howard 7:59
like it's really interesting subject. And it's also a conversation with somebody yesterday, and they were and one statement was, because this is also occurs in the mental health space too. So you know, because you because I know you're talking about societal stuff, but there is also societal stuff around mental health. So I know societal stuff because you were in prisons and things like that, and poverty and stuff. But the same situation occurs in the mental health space. I had a conversation somebody yesterday who said, you know, I think sometimes we use mental health as a way to explain just bad behavior. And I was horrified by the statement, and I found myself immediately wanting to leap in and say, like, like, it's so convenient and so privileged to make statements like that. So it's very interesting that in this wealthy country that we still want to push these things away, to the side and not support this, not support, financially, emotionally, societally, the things that could change our entire society and make life better for everybody. 100%
Sara Slattery 9:11
Yeah, and when people feel like they don't belong, and believe me, these people know that they don't belong in other spaces. You know, I used to work in ballymolen, and so I'd be in the 13 a bus going home. And these lads used to be just putting their fingers up to DCU on the way down. That place was so out of reach for them that they were like, we hate that place. And so we can see this playing out now with the, you know, recruitment of a lot of these young lads into the far right. And this is how it happens. This is how it happens when we completely ignore huge chunks of society. And I'm not saying that it's right or, you know, I'm not trying to explain away really awful behavior, but we won't make any change unless we really get to the root of the source of what a lot of this is. And it's a feel. Of not belonging. And it's intergenerational. In some of these areas,
Finola Howard 10:04
as it is being it's being handed down from generation to generation, and that there's no way out. Is that what you mean? Yeah.
Sara Slattery 10:11
So, like, some of these housing estates were built maybe 60 years ago or so, you have maybe three generations of unemployment. You've, you know, you've three generations of living on social welfare. You've three generations of mental health issues, three generations of, you know, drug addiction, whatever, whatever the case may be. And it's extremely difficult to get out of those situations when there's so much going on against you. And of course, some people do absolutely, and I'm not taking away from anyone's agency, but it sure is a harder road.
Finola Howard 10:50
And so working in this space, you know, you are dealing with conditioning. I hear you when you said that you either burn out or you opt out. Like I can see that being a, you know, because that's survival more often when we're in a difficult situation. The the lowest rung on that ladder of, you know, your vagus nerve is to just shut down and not feel anything, because it's too much.
Sara Slattery 11:18
It's too much. It is too much. And I and I think the same probably goes for a lot of guards and nurses and, you know, people working in emergency departments, like all those kind of roles, social work, youth work, all of those type of roles. Because how can you continue for that length of time in what we call a full career, which, you know, could be 4050, years without kind of taking significant breaks. Um, I think it's it's really quite difficult, and I think the expectations are incorrect, really. And
Finola Howard 11:48
is this, when you say those difficult locations, the places that people wish didn't exist, is that what happens? Is it that we refuse to see it? Is that why we're not resourcing it. Why? Why are not enough? It sounds like there's not enough people supporting that space. Is it that we don't want to see it, and therefore we're not supporting it? Why do you think we're not It's not resourced enough? I mean, there's plenty of money. Sarah,
Sara Slattery 12:15
there is plenty of money. I think, I think it's a class issue, and I think it is, you know, I've been noticing lately people love getting behind a cause overseas. And I'm not knocking that, and you should do that if that's what feels uh correct for you. But you're not great at speaking to your neighbor next door who's having a tough time. So I think there is something about helping which feels easier, if something as far away and helping on a day to day basis, which might require difficult conversations, vulnerable conversations, actually asking someone, are you okay? Questioning, what's my role here? Can I help? And people just, I don't know, kind of disassociate from that, because that requires real human connection, and not just sending money in an online donation, which is also very important. But I think sometimes we're great at looking out here, speaking about all of this issues, and then walking past a block of flats and labeling them as scumbags. And I'm really interested in how can we bring that level of compassion to our day to day lives, our neighbors, the people we meet on the street. That's that's interesting to
Finola Howard 13:37
me, because community has deteriorated. Community has
Sara Slattery 13:41
deteriorated. I think people are too busy. People are struggling themselves, and I think it's easier to do something to help people that doesn't require more human more conversations, more actual help, you know. Like, you know, the whole you mentioned mental health earlier, people like in the community, love to get together and raise money for that. And then in the very next breath, we'll pass someone on street who they know are struggling, but don't really want to get into a conversation with them, because, oh, God, what would they say? And it's too difficult. And I don't get caught up in that, you know, and I'm not knocking that. I'm not great at that, either, but I think it's certainly a deeper way to start dealing with issues, rather than fire money and having this is another part of the community voluntary sector. It's there's too many agencies, there's too many people involved, there's too many charities, there's too many organizations, and not enough coordination, not enough targeted sport, interesting.
Finola Howard 14:45
I mean, I really reflect on that, and I thank you for raising it. And I'm gonna, I think you've already given us something to think about there. I'm gonna change tack for a minute. I. I still want to underline what you've just stated. I think that that idea of the humanness and the vulnerability of looking at our next door neighbor and the person that we pass on the street and and coming with every human being as a human being, as a human being, as opposed to coming to them as a class. I've taken it. I've really taken it on board, and I thank you for raising it. I'm going to change tack. I want to change tack and talk about burnout for a minute, because there's so much talk about burnout and the levels of anxiety, loneliness, etc, in the world. Can you share with everybody what because we talk about it so much, sometimes I don't think we realize what it actually means, or what it looks like, because we take a box in our heads about what burnout is. Can you share your experience of what burnout is just really quickly, or what common manifestations of burnout are, so that perhaps we can also recognize the signs. Here's
Sara Slattery 16:03
the thing, with burnout, the people, a lot of the people who claim they're burned out are really just very tired, and then the people who are on the verge of burnout don't know they're on the verge of burnout. So it's difficult. It's difficult. I have a lot of women who come to my private coaching practice who would never say they're burnt out, and I can see it like within two appointments. I'm like, okay, they're coming to the end of this particular work phase. I can see it in whatever shape or form, whether they leave or they go off sick or something. And so burnout is really, I suppose, it's simply where your demands are greater than your resources. So there is too much being demanded off you, in whatever shape or form. But people just think it's, it's work. The work demands are too much, and I can't cope. And this is, this is part of the problem. We've individualized burnout, that these are the demands I can't cope. Therefore there is something wrong with me. And then that spirals into, Oh, I better do some more meditation, or I better do eat better or better, you know? And so we add, started adding more onto our plate, which is probably what we don't need, but usually burn out the way I spot it in a lot of my clients is very, very high functioning. But like always on the go, can't stop talking, because they literally do not stop. And then they crash at the weekend. They spend their whole weekend recovering, and it's not enough. And then they have like we all can relate to the Monday evening blues, but this is a different level. It's more teary, more emotional. I can't believe I have to go back in here again tomorrow. And then there's a really, really strong internal narrative of what is wrong with me. I can't cope. And so people think that burnout is, oh, I have crashed and I'm lying in my bed and I can't get out of bed. That can certainly happen, but it's often, like the steps before that, that people completely miss it and hope, by trying harder, that they'll get back to where they were. It's
Finola Howard 18:09
very similar, you know, that whole idea of trying harder, but as you spoke, you know, what struck me was, why are we not saying no enough when it's when it's it's too much, when it's like when you find yourself saying, God's an awful lot, or it's too much, or that, you know, frantic conversation that high paced, because you don't have time not to get it all in. It's got to get in, in this moment, in this moment, and then you've got to run and touch so a bus, or you have to collect kids or whatever. Why are people not saying no? Okay,
Sara Slattery 18:44
I think this is because it comes in incrementally. So if all of these things are on our plate landed on you tomorrow, you would say, No. You'd be like, No, I can't parent and manage this home and do this high power job and go for go for the next position and volunteer at my kids school. Of course, I'm not going to do that. That would be very, very clear, but it comes in so slowly. And also, there's a life cycle thing here. What we were able to do in our 20s. I know Jesus, I used to give it my all in work in my 20s. And when I say my all like way too much, I would say working late, saying yes to everything. Because I was really excited. I was chomping at the bit. I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to make a change. Of course, I'll do it absolutely and so we continue on that vein, thinking that we can still do that, when, in fact, other things come onto our plate, whether that's elderly parents that have caring needs, whether it's our own children, whether it's just that we're older and we don't have the same level of that type of energy. I think we have a different type of energy as we get older, but it's not maybe the physical type, and so it sneaks up on us. And when things sneak up on us, it's so hard to pull apart. What is it? What is wrong here? And so it's much easier to just take it all on ourselves and go. I used to be able to do this. Why can't I? What is wrong with me?
Finola Howard 20:10
It reminds me of my own experiences, of stuff, of where, when incremental changes happen. Your definition of normality moves. So what you would say today, of, I would never do that, or I would never put up with that. And you find yourself going, and that's it, that's the last straw. And then you find yourself six months later, or when you're later, going, how did I get here, you know, and how did i i would never like, I find it interesting that perhaps we should be sense checking and and looking at, would I have done this six months ago? Would I have done this 10 years ago? Would I've done this two years ago? Has my is this? Is this inverted commas, normal, like that? Incremental move is insidious. It's sneaky. Like, how do we prepare against it?
Sara Slattery 21:08
It's so sneaky. It happens over years, possibly a decade. I think as long as we start to notice that that's how it happens, and we can begin to go Okay, going forward now, what actually is my definition of success? What do I want? Do I want that promotion now? Or do I just feel like I should go for it? Because that's what a good feminist does, right? Do I really want to be part of this? Because I really think we've been sold a pup. I really don't think that we can have it all this. Having it All is what even is all? Whose story is that of it all? Do you even want that? Or is that something that you were kind of conditioned to want when you were 20 and you were in university, and you were like, Yeah, I want to do that. That's exciting to me. So I think we have to question it all. What is a benchmark for success at this stage of your life? Because I guarantee it's different from when you're 25 or 35 and it'd be different again when you're 55 and we need to start embracing new levels of success that aren't just money in the bank and a position which can be really, really important. I'm not knocking that, but is it really what you want, or is it what your dad, your dad wanted, or your mother wanted, and you've never even questioned what that is. Want
Finola Howard 22:33
is interesting. I wrote about this in my book, and want is a really powerful place to be, because very often we work from a place of needing to do things and that frantic pace that people are on. But want requires imagination. Want requires introspection, because it's what do I want. It's not what what my partner wants or what my child wants or what my mother or father wants. It's what do I want and is it's also pretty. It's particularly difficult for women. It's difficult for men and women, but more so for women of the because the natural nurturing tendency kind of makes the I wants move to the side. And I think that if we did sit in the I want space now and more and flex that as a muscle, because that muscle seems to atrophy over time, that if we flex that muscle every day or every week to check in, perhaps, perhaps the burnout wouldn't work. Perhaps that that idea of success in someone else's terms would actually be replaced with a truer sense of success like you're speaking about.
Sara Slattery 23:40
Yeah, and you made a great point there. Want needs space to imagine and to dream and to vision. And a lot of the women that I work with, particularly if they have caring responsibilities, they are time poor and they are energy poor, and so they would just say, I don't have time for that. I'm literally getting every other door in the morning I'm going to work. I'm just holding it all together so they can feel quite angry if say, you need to take time out for this. And that's why coaching is so brilliant, because you're literally paying for the space to try and start thinking new ways, new ways of doing things. What do I really want? Is this? What I want in this stage of my life? Because they are completely overworked, and they're doing more of the housework, they're doing more of the domestic care, they're doing more of the emotional labor, and they're doing it for less money. So it's, it's, I'm always reticent to suggest to women to do something else, because they're already at their, their, their the end point that being said, we cannot imagine a new way unless we kind of craft some space to actually think of what, what is right for me at this stage of my life. Do you think that that
Finola Howard 24:56
women couldn't let go of things to in order to create that space? Yes, absolutely.
Sara Slattery 25:00
And that comes with a societal penalty, because if you decide to do things differently, people have a very strong opinions, or maybe not even strong strong opinions, but strong thoughts and a narrative about what a good mother is about what a good woman is, you know about what a good employee is. So, you know, even, like the Harvard Business Review is saying, like, your Women at Work can either be likable or ambitious, but not both, right? So that is the perception from this piece of research, that you cannot be both. So they go into work and they're trying to like, oh, do I be this person? Do I be really liked, or do I just become this person who everyone's going to dislike? And so that comes at a cost. It may not come at a financial cost, but it comes at a cost where you are no longer maybe belonging and work you're going in and everyone stops talking when you arrive into a room. So those kind of things, we can say no to things. We can change things. We absolutely can. And people are going to have opinions about it. People are going to say things about it. Your own family of origin might have some things to say about it. And learning to be with that discomfort, I think, is where the big Flex is.
Finola Howard 26:15
Can I ask you a stupid question now, which is this idea of I can either be ambitious or likable, and immediately I wanted to say, Well, why can't we just be ourselves? Yeah, yeah. I just don't understand why we can't just be ourselves. And that is, that's an honest question. What
Sara Slattery 26:35
I think there's something about our current work environment where we perform, we are going into what were male dominated industries, because we didn't access the workplace until later. Right? So we, we arrived into spaces that were designed for really, you know, middle aged men who had people doing all the other stuff at home, right? And of course, things have changed. And of course, like, you know, we have new policies and we have new laws, and we have HR and all that kind of stuff. But it takes a while, I think, for those dynamics to actually leave our our psyches and our way of being, I think, because we've had them for 1000s of years. So there is something about being yourself at work that feels unsafe. We all know about fight or flight, but there's another piece on that. It's called fawning, and that is appeasing, being likable and making sure everybody in the room likes you. And the reason why we do it is because we feel that there's a lack of access to power. And when we do that, when we're likable, we can stay safe. It's a safety thing. So it's not safe for you to fight back in the boardroom or in the meeting. It may not be safe for you to leave because you might be punished with something else, but it might be safe for you to agree with what everybody's saying and go along with it, and that will keep you in the gang and keep you in line, to keep your job safe and potentially line up for promotion. It's a safety instinct, I think.
Finola Howard 28:16
Now I want to scream, lack of access to power is the thing that struck me. I get the safety thing, but the lack of access to power is reprehensible to me. I just see this is why I'm self employed.
Sara Slattery 28:32
I just this is why I'm self employed. Can't
Finola Howard 28:35
I can't do it like I just can't do it. It's crazy to me because, and I think it's I'm having conversations about the whole idea of leadership. And recent podcast episodes have been about leadership, because I keep asking this question, why has this not changed? We all know this. We all know this stuff, of bad behavior of leaders, of old style thinking, dinosaur idea of leadership, and if someone is suffering from a lack of access to power and having to resort to this, and I hadn't heard about fawning before, it's really interesting to me, and I want to know more now, but that likability making you safe is crazy to me. It's, it's a it's not adult, it's not evolved. It's like it's crazy to me. How is this still happening?
Sara Slattery 29:29
Or we can say it's a completely appropriate response to the realities of our lives and our workplaces. I like, I think how we form. I think I get that it's, it's, it's, it's not that we're not evolved, but our workplaces have not evolved to ensure that we are safe enough to, as you said, be ourselves. I don't think we're there yet at all. All
Finola Howard 30:01
now we're not there. It all these conversations are telling me that we're not there. But I'm curious as to how many more years have to go by, because all of the the leadership theory around this stuff is 7080, 100 years old. Why are we not? Why hasn't it moved like we are not in the industrial era. We're suffering from huge levels of anxiety in the world. There is still a mass exodus of people, like the amount of conversations that I would have, and would have historically had, of, you know, the hook or the anchor point of the podcast conversation would be, I left corporate, and I'm doing this now, but it's like everybody's leaving corporate. That's actually not interesting anymore, you know, from me being very pragmatic up at these conversations, so I'm really interested in, Yeah, but why? Why are, why are so many people leaving? And that idea of no access to power strikes me, and the likability defense strikes me, and the lack of being myself strikes me. How could, of course, we have burnout if we can't be ourselves? Of course, if we can't want, if we can't choose, in this day and age, in in in a country where there is so much. Why can't we be ourselves? I
Sara Slattery 31:23
wonder. These are the things I think about all the time. I wonder, are we going through a change of ages in terms of work? You know, as you you mentioned there, it almost feels like we're still in the Industrial Revolution era, but like we haven't quite transitioned out of that yet And yet, our minds and our spirits and our bodies are very much left to that space, but the actual bricks and mortar and the culture has not shifted to line up with that yet, and I think that's maybe why we're seeing this kind of disconnect with people's needs and wants within employment. Because people want to work, they want to do something, they want to do something, they want to contribute, but they're no longer willing to do it at these massive costs to themselves.
Finola Howard 32:10
How much longer do we have to put up with this? I don't
Sara Slattery 32:12
know. I don't know. I wish I knew.
Finola Howard 32:17
Okay, let's let's talk about, kind of your old definition of a good day's work and how you framed your thinking, because it's kind of appropriate in this conversation you talked about, you know, going at that pace where your heart is racing and but there's this idea of also Savior behavior as well, and not asking for pay rise in the industry that you were in being something that was quite endemic in that space, and even like this idea of and you see this a lot with people in caring and nurturing professions of and even when they transition to employment where they don't feel it's fair to charge people for their time or ask for pay rises. Or can you talk to me about old definitions of work and how we can move them, maybe. Yeah,
Sara Slattery 33:04
so I think a lot of us go into workplaces, you know, we're young, energetic and full of ideals of the world. I certainly was, anyways, came from the green fields of Galway up to the flats of ballymon. Thought, Jesus, this is it. There I go, ready to save things. And that savior complex was really, really strong in me, and actually a bit embarrassed when I think back. But I was also very young. So, you know, we, we all have a little bit of that in us. Um, but I just threw myself into it. And I think probably from, you know, family of origin stuff from the area that I grew up in, the West of Ireland, you know, work equates to, certainly around here, physical work. It's, and I think this is probably from our, you know, our past, you know, this kind of intergenerational traumas, that you better work and you better, you know, be able to work land and do practical things, or else, you better have nothing. So I think like when you grow up in areas where good work equals good person, and hard work equals a valuable member of society, and if you don't do that, then you're a nobody, you can translate a lot of that then into your own workplace. That then coupled with the dynamics of caring industries you mentioned before. Creative Industries also have a little bit of this dynamic. You can just really, really over give because you care so much and you put your own needs, like, well, down the bottom of the ladder. So you'd be like, I don't mind so much about pay, you know, it's grand. I love my work. I love what I do, almost a little bit sanctimonious about it,
Finola Howard 34:42
you know, but can I just say it's such it's such shite, isn't it? Like I just really want to say that, yeah, it's desperate, because you're damaging yourself making do things, statements like that, and demonizing money and your relationship with money and success by making statements like. That 100%
Sara Slattery 35:02
just little tendrils of it still lurking. But there is that martyrdom of give, give, give, give, give, and not even considering yourself. And then after 10 years, you're like, Yeah, well, all my friends are now on triple my salary. We all have similar qualifications. What's actually going on here? And you only kind of cop on later on when you want to buy a house, or you want to, I don't know, pay for therapy, for the shite that you're dealing with at work, and you realize that you don't actually have the means and the resources to do it, and you no longer have that Bank of energy that you had in your 20s, in those maiden years when you're like you just you have it all, and it no longer continues, and that then feeds into that cycle, then of of burnout. But yeah, I had some really, really unhealthy relationships with work. My definition of a good day's work was if my heart was racing at the end of the day, which I find actually so sad when I think about for myself, but that's how I valued myself. That's but
Finola Howard 36:03
let's also say that so many people are like that, yeah, so many people are like this, but we're just trying to name it. Yeah, we're trying to name it here,
Sara Slattery 36:14
do a good day's work and not actually harm yourself. That is possible, and that's been part of
Finola Howard 36:19
my journey. You can also do a good day's work, and it'd be easy. I know I'm
Sara Slattery 36:23
not quite there yet, but that's my next, my next level, but right now I'm in the I just want to work in a way that is not harmful to myself or to other people or to the planet. And yeah, it's definitely a road.
Finola Howard 36:38
Let's talk about how we can work. And I want to pay attention particularly to because I've had a couple of conversations about this, and I'd like to shine a little bit more of a light on it, this idea of the difference between men and women in how they work, hormonally, like cycling, all of that kind of stuff. Can you speak about that and and if you can ground some of it in, like strong examples, because we need to bring this perspective in to how everybody works. I'll
Sara Slattery 37:13
start by saying that I don't think our current work structures work for anybody, right, men or women. I just, I think a 40 hour work week. Plus, I just don't think it's health or healthy, um, but most of the people I work with are women, and we have a unique hormonal cycle that is 28 days. And we often just think of our cycle as I just have my period, and then we forget about the rest of it. Well, actually we have a whole four there's four periods in our cycle, and two of them are kind of high energy outward, and two of them are a bit more inward. And if we can kind of start tracking that and noticing, and even just in the beginning, just noticing, oh, I've got loads of energy at this time, or these are the tasks that I like doing at this time, or these are the tasks I prefer to do, and I'm a bit more inward. I like to do my bookkeeping when I'm due my period, because, you know, just it's a nice kind of inward task. And then you can start working in a different way that honors your body and honors your needs and honors who you are, as like a mammal, as as a as a part of nature, we have forgotten, you know, we became the machines in the industrial revolution, and we have somehow forgotten that we are not we're not that we're human, and by Being human means we are not consistent. Consistency is a myth. I really have an issue with the word consistency, because consistency is kind of equated with linear and go, go, go, perpetual growth. And we all know in nature, there is no perpetual growth. We need an equal amount of time of rest. And in that rest, you get all your great ideas. You get like, things come to you. You mull things over, bit of composting, and then you can go back out again and have that amazing growth. And so we can do that ourselves, within our own bodies, if you have a cycle, and start tracking that, and start leaning more into that, rather than the linear calendar. Of course, we have to work in the linear calendar, because that's how the world operates. But you can do both. So say, for example, I'll give you an example. My Today is Monday we're recording. I would check in with my cycle on a Monday of every week. What phase Am I in? And therefore I kind of just know what my energy is going to be like this week. And so I'll populate a few things into my calendar that week. So that's a very, very simple way of, kind of shifting how I work and how I manage my energy.
Finola Howard 39:46
So you're cyclically checking yes, where am I now? And so as a menopausal woman, and who. Doesn't have a period any longer. How do I sense check that? So, like, it's easier when you're younger, because you can tell your cycles immediately. So the question then becomes, are we trying to monitor our energy levels because we don't know what our cycle is anymore?
Sara Slattery 40:18
Yeah. So our cycle is just one way of tuning in with our bodies. If you no longer have a cycle, or, you know, for whatever reason, you know, hysterectomy, or anything like that, you can check in with the lunar cycle. It's the same thing. It's 28 days, 29 days, give or take, and at the very least, then you can kind of go okay, this month has been somewhat, I hate the word balance, but somewhat in equilibrium, in terms of the energy going out versus energy coming back in. So that can just be another nice way. You can also check in, like, annually. Like, where are we? We're currently in summer, which is a high energy couple of months, but a lot of the time it's high energy going towards our people in our lives. It's actually not really going towards our work. And in winter can be like a quieter time, but you might have loads of ideas, so we can tune in in loads of different ways, and kind of unhook from this linear nine to five, January to December. Way of recording time. I think we can have a different relationship with time and different relationship with our bodies, and we will have more energy as a result.
Finola Howard 41:34
How does someone start? If you were if someone said that kind of makes sense to me, but it's a little overwhelming to me. So where do I start? Where will I? What will I do today, to go, you know, because it could be this way of optimizing, it just feels like such a beautiful way to work and as such an empowered way to work that's in this group. Because I know, in my nature, right? I know that there are times when, when I like being on a stage, and I like being or in a networking event or at an event, and pro, you know, really putting things out, and then and thinking, you know, this idea between the introvert and the extrovert, and then we had the emergence of the ambivert and all of those kinds of things and but, but accepting and giving ourselves permission for those times when it's this is the quiet time and this is the other time, but then sitting and going, but how do I start?
Sara Slattery 42:36
So we always start by tracking, because you can't actually make any changes until you actually know, most women, and myself included, we used to get our period in our 20s, and it'd be complete surprise. We're like, oh, that's why it's in such a bad mood for the last three days, like, had no clue where we were in our cycle, not a notion. So and you can, so you can get an app and you can just start on the day one your first period and start tracking that. So that is day one, and you can kind of start, at the very least, going right, if I'm bleeding, I'm going to slow down a little bit more. Can I, you know, not go into work? No. I mean, I prefer to not, but I'm working on a busy hospital award. What can I do? Well, maybe I can just slow down between this this award and this ward, maybe I can just make a micro change and actually honor myself and actually take my lunch break on those particular days. So we can start very, very slowly, but we do need to track where day one is. And if you're working with the lunar cycle, you can just Google Lunar moons and pop them into your calendar when the full moon is, which lines up with ovulation, when the Dark Moon is, and that kind of lines up with your bleed. And you can kind of go with go with that, and
Finola Howard 43:52
still, if you don't have a period, you can still do it by lunar cycle. Is that what you're recommending? I think that is a way
Sara Slattery 43:59
to connect into beginning to practice because it's a practice, because we've been operating in a different way for so long, practice slowing down for half of the month and practice going out there for the other half of the month. Now that's just one way. I mean, you're gonna have other things going on your life. There might be, like, sick kids, when you're in your like, high energy levels, and you know, you'd be raging about that. So you have to just go with what life is giving you as well. Of course, with it is one tool to connect with your body, connect somatically, connect with a different Actually, your innate um cycle of time, rather than working to outside forces.
Finola Howard 44:47
I like this, this phrase, innate cycle of time, because, yeah, it sits with me more powerfully. What do you say? If someone says that's all. Bit. Lula, Sarah, yeah, what just say to that? Yeah, I bet. So, yeah, let's name this one.
Sara Slattery 45:10
I don't know whether it's menopause oncoming as well, but I no longer have any time for disregarding anything to do with my body that is female based. If I hit a broken arm and I couldn't work, I would tell you why I couldn't work. If I can't work because I have, I do have endometriosis and some other issues. I am no longer pretending that that is not the case and making it up. I used to make it up, and that comes from all the shame about women's bodies, and I am just over it, right? So 50% of us either have had cycles or will have cycles. And can we just stop pretending that this is not the case? So to answer your question is, when people say is, is too Woo, it's not. This is biology. This is actually science. These are facts and these are hormones. This is, you know, just because there hasn't been too much research done on this, of course, because it's, it's new, and it doesn't benefit a lot of the research companies. But that doesn't mean that it isn't true. So part, I think, of our reclamation of our power is reclaiming our bodily functions, who we are and be non apologetic for that.
Finola Howard 46:32
I love that. It's a really good way to end the conversation. But I will still ask you this question, what would you like people to walk away with today,
Sara Slattery 46:42
I would love you to start questioning why things are the way they are. Have you kind of gone along with what you've been told to do? Do you really want to do the work that you're doing and maybe you do and do you really want to do it in the way that you're doing it? Maybe bring some changes into that as well. I would just ask you to start thinking about these things. We've been souls, some lies and some stories and some of them may not be true in your life. I
Finola Howard 47:10
love it. Thank you so much, Sarah, that was wonderful and hopefully thought provoking for everyone, because it was definitely thought provoking for me. So thank you so much. Thanks so much for now, and that's it for this episode, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. Make sure to connect with Sarah on Instagram and tune into the other two episodes in this healthy Success Series. Thank you for listening to your truth shared. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to share it with your entrepreneurial friends and help them grow their business to even greater heights, and until next time, let's keep growing. You.
